voting breakdown

[123456789]

Excuse me if this has already been mentioned (somewhere) but one thing that raises my curiousity is the number of votes I've recieved that were 9's or 10's (and 1's or 2's) etc. Is there a way (or a will) to indicate how many 6's, 7's, and so on, an entry got? Sort of a breakdown of each numerical value and how many votes were recorded in each. I find this an interesting stat. because even if an entry doesn't do well, seeing that it got a 9 and two 8's is, at least, encouraging, and conversely, seeing that an entry which scored well got two 3's and a two helps develop a more critical eye towards one's (no pun intended) own work. It doesn't need a graph or anything fancy, just 1-10 with a number beside each.

[Dave]

Maybe it will come someday.

[libra]

Gosh you take this all very seriously 1-9. I am happy just watching the average score during voting...

[123456789]

Well, if people are going to take the time to vote and comment, I may as well learn as much from them as I possibly can. Constructive comments are very helpful, but some voters don't comment, and even this lack of input could be constructive if well interpreted.

[Dave]

The scores people give out (in some cases) make no sense and cannot be explained by anything other than personal taste or pure malice. Having a 10 vote may fill you with pride that someone considers your image perfect in every way ... fair enough I'd be well pleased with that or a 9, an 8 even a 7 .... :)

But it makes you MAD when some "kind person" gives you a 1 or 2 .... it gets so distracting you lose sight of what's important .... the average score, the score that represents the combined opinion of your fellow competitors and choppers.

The downside and it's a big downside is that it creates bad feeling and worst of all there's NOTHING you can do about it but complain to anyone that will listen .... and believe me they wont!

So yeah it might make a pretty histogram to look at but are you prepared to pay the cost?

If you're unhappy with the score you get for an entry ask for a critique after the contest has closed .... accept the comments you get with grace and thanks for those that gave their time to help you to improve.

[D Rock]

very well said Dave.

[Happy]

Definately well said Dave.

I never liked the breakdown and would not like to see it here. In my personal opinion it does create more hard feelings than it does any good. I think 1s, 2s, 3s, and 10s are more a matter of personal feelings or an attempt at placement outcome than a critical interpretation.

[Scott]

I don't have a lot to say on this. I think Dave did say it very well. There are always going to be those users that throw out 1,2,3 votes and a couple that will give far more 9s and 10s then anyone else. There isn't a whole lot that can be gained from seeing what every vote was. Its the average that is most telling. If you are averaging 5's try to average 6s and so on.

Anyway... I'm following this thread :) It's not so much a coding issue as it is a usability issue.

[123456789]

The reason behind my query was that in my first entry here, I got a lot of very kind and encouraging comments (wows) but my piece recieved just slightly higher than average marks. This could come down to the fact that I just haven't gotten the 'feel' for the voting scale (I was a little nervous voting when I hadn't yet gotten any feedback.)
I see that this is an issue which some may take to heart so I won't push it, and I certainly didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers. All I wanted to say was that I think it would help ME in a critical evaluation of my own work. I certainly wouldn't mind if someone gave me an honest 2 or 3 (you would expect that this would be followed by some sort of comment, though.) After all, it isn't personal (especially in an anonymous contest.)
Now, if someone gave me low marks to bolster their own entry, then I trust the administrators of this site to correct the problem and besides, people who would do that would certainly make up a small minority of the voting population and it wouldn't really affect the average that much. I just find that some people tend to pull their proverbial punches in the comments. I also accept the fact that not all (if any) of the voters would be considered expert at judging ALL the details nor would I expect people to take the time to critique every single aspect of a given entry. So it often comes down to a gut reaction. If one of thirteen voters gives me a 2, oh well, grain of salt, but if three out of thirteen voters gave me a two, I'd try to figure out what I did wrong.
Maybe it would be possible to check a box in the user options to activate such a thing (I don't know squat about coding.) I would certainly like to see how the votes were spread out, but if not, it doesn't really matter much, I just think it would be interesting. For me, it's all about feedback, and this would simply be another source (however vague.) I agree about the critique thread (advTHANKSance to all who take the time to reply,) still, I can't help but feel that this is an avenue which I wouldn't want to abuse and, quite frankly, I'd be a little shy posting there as often as I think I might need to.
I'm sorry if I accidentally raised an old (or sensitive) issue, but I think that the 'breakdown' would give me more of a sense of whether the idea behind my entry was generally accepted as a good one or if it only appealed to a certain few since both scenarios could potentially add up to the same average score. (Besides, the forum's been dead all week-end. ;))

-edited-
Anyway... I'm following this thread It's not so much a coding issue as it is a usability issue.
Thanks Jolt. :)

[libra]

1-9 there are some fantastic people that give some honest and reliable crits here. I love seeing the comments and at times I wish there were more, just so that I'd know what people truely think. A lot of people are willing to go out of their way to give you constructive disections (ie burndog rocks!) of every detail if you want as well - just ask.

I will tell you one thing however... you are very good - you have nothing to worry about and your work is at an above average standard. I seriously doubt that anyone would give you 1's and 2's with the standards that you have set and if you did I am sure that admin would approach the issue. Hell, we all can't expect to ace everything all the time... it would be nice, but life ain't like that.

Now put your feet up, have a drink, relax, go with the flow and enjoy!!!

[Scott]

[QUOTE=123456789]The reason behind my query was that in my first entry here, I got a lot of very kind and encouraging comments (wows) but my piece recieved just slightly higher than average marks. This could come down to the fact that I just haven't gotten the 'feel' for the voting scale (I was a little nervous voting when I hadn't yet gotten any feedback.)
[/quote]

There are users that will say "WOW!!" then vote a 5. Nothing we can do about it. it's just the way some people are. In most cases I'd have to say that our users are encouraging or try to be. So "WOW!" may be for a great idea but they felt the execution could have been better or vice versa. It's hard to say. Take the wow comments seriously. But also look at the average. I know that if I get some wow comments but my image is at a 5 or 6... it's not a "Wow" image although it may have impressed a few people.



I see that this is an issue which some may take to heart so I won't push it, and I certainly didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers. All I wanted to say was that I think it would help ME in a critical evaluation of my own work. I certainly wouldn't mind if someone gave me an honest 2 or 3 (you would expect that this would be followed by some sort of comment, though.) After all, it isn't personal (especially in an anonymous contest.)


We encourage everyone to speak up if they think something could be improved or changed regardless of whether feathers are ruffled or not. Until an admin specifically says <b>NO</b> then you're free to voice anything. This is, after all, a community and each member makes the site and each member should have an equal voice. There are specific reasons some things aren't put in place so I can't say you'll always get your way.. but you ARE always free to bring it up.


Now, if someone gave me low marks to bolster their own entry, then I trust the administrators of this site to correct the problem and besides, people who would do that would certainly make up a small minority of the voting population and it wouldn't really affect the average that much. I just find that some people tend to pull their proverbial punches in the comments. I also accept the fact that not all (if any) of the voters would be considered expert at judging ALL the details nor would I expect people to take the time to critique every single aspect of a given entry. So it often comes down to a gut reaction. If one of thirteen voters gives me a 2, oh well, grain of salt, but if three out of thirteen voters gave me a two, I'd try to figure out what I did wrong.


We do handle users who vote poorly. We have been very lucky though, on the whole our users vote very well. It's primarily new users that need a little nudge in the right direction sometimes. Therefore, it's possible to see 3 low votes on your images if you were to see the votes. But, they would be from new members who haven't acquainted themselves with the voting guidelines. So now.... do you want to get all worked up or concerned your image isn't good just because 4 people who don't know how to vote, voted poorly?


Maybe it would be possible to check a box in the user options to activate such a thing (I don't know squat about coding.) I would certainly like to see how the votes were spread out, but if not, it doesn't really matter much, I just think it would be interesting. For me, it's all about feedback, and this would simply be another source (however vague.) I agree about the critique thread (advTHANKSance to all who take the time to reply,) still, I can't help but feel that this is an avenue which I wouldn't want to abuse and, quite frankly, I'd be a little shy posting there as often as I think I might need to.


What if... and this is just a complete hypothetical, I haven't looked into logistics.... What if, you could post in the critique forum as an anonymous user?... no one would know who you are. Would that make it more accessible?


I'm sorry if I accidentally raised an old (or sensitive) issue, but I think that the 'breakdown' would give me more of a sense of whether the idea behind my entry was generally accepted as a good one or if it only appealed to a certain few since both scenarios could potentially add up to the same average score.

Again.. controversy or topics about improving the site will always meet with resistance from some (Including me at times :) ) but you should never worry about bringing them up.

[123456789]

libra, I hear you loud and clear (and yes, burndog DOES rock,) but I just want to say that I don't expect to 'ace' anything at all really, quite the contrary. I think that everybody has room to improve (myself included.) I think I do have a relaxed attitude about the contests (sorry if it sounds like I'm whining about my scores, I'm not, I was actually quite thrilled with the input) they ARE just for fun, after all. Like I said, I wasn't really sure what a 6 meant - I did read Jolts voting outline, but it was hard to put it into practice when I hadn't had anything concrete to base it on. I wasn't complaining that my score was low, I just used it as an example to (try to) demonstrate that people were very polite and perhaps too concious of other people's feelings when posting comments. Nobody wants to come off as a nit-picker, after all. The problem is that I really was looking for my nits to be picked. Maybe the critics' thread is a good idea, but I'm afraid that I'd want to put all my work in there and I just really don't want to impose (..that much.) I'm not trying to change anyone's voting or commenting style or anything like that, rather I'd like to be able to tell (all technical aspects aside) whether my work is generally well-liked or if it's more love/hate. I don't mind doing things that some people will not like at all and others will find fantastic, just as I don't mind doing some things that are more mainstream in nature. I'd just like to be able to tell which is which.
ps- I wasn't fishing for compliments either, but I thank you for those nice remarks. :D

-edited-
Damn Jolt, always just a step ahead, eh? lol

I hear you about the new users (maybe two entries before the noobs like me can vote - just to get a feel for it, I wouldn't have minded.) And I can already tell that everyone here is helpful in extremis, but if I anonymously post a closed contest entry in the critics' thread, everyone will know, won't they? *Wait, you meant the replies would be anonymous, didn't you? Well, it would be nice to know who they were for two reasons: 1- if I have any further questions or need clarification on a certain point, 2- others would learn from my mistakes and could reference the poster for more details etc..*
btw Jolt, you (and some of the more experienced members here) really know how to make a guy feel welcome. Thanks to you all. :)

-edited-
I've uploaded some stuff to my personal gallery and I encourage all those who are interested to really tear my work apart. No detail is too small, I am here to learn after all. The commenting on closed contests was a great idea, and I'll be checking those too, so feel free to tell me what you think is WRONG. Don't worry, I won't get upset - if it's an honest assessment - in fact, I crave good solid critiques. This might be a good solution to my original thought in this thread. :)

[Dave]

It's okay guys, he's just a :newbie: so we can ignore him .... :D

:1ooops: wrong website! :buttkick: for Dave

1-9 the main thing I've found here (and yes I'm one of the conspirators to a minor extent) on this site you can speak freely as long as it is with respect then you will get considered replies, you wont be put down, shunned or targetted for what you say.

The one BIG issue is human nature, it's very difficult to give a fair well balanced critique, sadly it's hardest to give them to lower grade images than it is to the better ones, because you want to encourage and give positive advice (it's why I get so few comments :). I know I have to do better!). It stops some people from joining sites like this because they don't like to give or receive critique even if only by voting, the more public the vote the less people are likely to vote. Sad but true.

As for commenting on closed entries I'm not sure of the benefit unless someone posts "go to my contest entry X and give me more critique please". Personally unless asked I'd only use it to say "WOW, great image" and hope the author reads it someday.

[123456789]

1-9 the main thing I've found here (and yes I'm one of the conspirators to a minor extent) on this site you can speak freely as long as it is with respect then you will get considered replies, you wont be put down, shunned or targetted for what you say.
Damn, and I thought this was a fun site... ;)
The thing that keeps me from posting comments to the new is that the list of 'Ya shoulda's' is so long as to be discouraging. Let the newbies cut their teeth, kick their butts in a cage, let them make doofuses of themselves in the forums and THEN let them have it once you've gotten to know them well enough for them not to be offended, eh? ;) Only when they have gotten over themselves will they be able to grow as artists. I'm speaking from experience here, as I had been a member of 'another' chop site for a few months before switching. I'm a virgin once more.
You're right, though, voting is very subjective. I just wanted to let everyone know that they can say anything (with respect) to me 'cause I tend not to be very shy about that sort of thing myself. All I want is some good advice. It's a learning experience, and even a seasoned pro can learn a thing or two just by giving some advice to an attentive ear and an open mind (hopefully, like mine.)
ps- Just be careful what you say to someone who still has a chance to dish out a losatar. heheheh -crosses fingers and prays- lol
***hey everyone, don't forget to check out the current cage match***

[Dave]

You mean

[quote=123456799]***hey everyone, don't forget to check out the current cage match*** (http://www.pixeladdiction.com/Contest.php?id=233)[/quote]

So that's what this thread has been all about :)

Vote For Me (and him)

[123456789]

What? Me subterfuge? Nevah!

[Silky]

I really don't think showing the individual votes is a good thing. I know there are some folks who would be okay with knowing...but I also know there are plenty of others who would see the votes on their image, and instead of focusing on the votes that were average or above, would dwell on the 1-3's that they got. That really doesn't do anyone any good at all. I do believe, though, that if someone wants a down and dirty critique on their image, that it's okay to give it...no holds barred. I'm not so sure that it's a great idea to do it in the forums...but I think an email critique would be perfectly fine.

If anyone ever wants one of those from me...all they have to do is ask. I toss away the "nice girl" exterior and don my "dark crusader" attire. :)

1-9 I think you're the type of person who would do okay with knowing the vote breakdown...but I think for every one of you, there are 20 people at the opposite end of the spectrum. So, then it just becomes a matter of weighing the pro's and con's. Sometimes the feasibility just isn't great enough to implement.

We do, however, ALWAYS value your input...your suggestions...your comments about how to improve PA. That's how we've gotten to where we are today...by asking our members what they wanted, and then doing what we could to provide it for them.

[libra]

Ooooooh now I have an urge to throw a spanner in the works now that we are alllllll kissy kissy huggy huggy here (feel the love?)

Just an idea. What is the feasability of there being a double voting bar per image? One for 'concept' and one for 'execution' following the current scale? Surely if it could be coded (you go Jolt, you can do it!) then an image that votes highly on concept and lower on executtion will still come up with an average overall vote? It is more complex on the calculation side of things in the background, but at least then the final votes would be more realistic and personal feelings would be left out of the equasion. If possible then the averages for concept and execution could be viewed individully per image to give the contestant a better idea on their weak points.

Ok you can hit me now...

[Dave]

[QUOTE=libra]Ok you can hit me now...[/QUOTE]

:spank:

[libra]

lol, I said 'hit' Dave, that's dusting!

[Dave]

Well try this ....

[Scott]

That's actually an interesting idea, Libra. Not sure how I'd go about pulling that off.. but it's definitely worth consideration :)

But.. if you think about it.. that's how things are now... 1-5 for execution .. 6-10 for concept. When I vote I start at 6... add points for great ideas.. subtract points for technical flaws.. so.. +2 to 8 for a great idea then -1, bad mask, -1, bad color matching, -1 clone pattern = 5 overall vote.


I start at 6 because the user took the time to enter.

so another image.... start at 6, It's a bad idea so no points for concept.. then -1 for bad mask = 5 overall vote.

Or start at 6 a fabulous idea +4 to 10, bad color matching in an area -1, blurry mask -1, definite pattern in cloning -1, bad perspective for an object -1, bad shadows -1 = 5 overall vote. Same image with a bad idea = 1 (i'd probably disqualify it)

[Dave]

Technical Merit, Artistic Interpretation? We'll have Tonya Harding and Torvill & Dean in here next :)

Who said skating on thin ice?

Actually I find it hard enough to give one vote out of 10 never mind two and I don't want to be the Russian judge :eek:

[123456789]

We do, however, ALWAYS value your input...your suggestions...your comments about how to improve PA. That's how we've gotten to where we are today...by asking our members what they wanted, and then doing what we could to provide it for them.

And you have, Silky. Don't get me wrong that's why I've settled on this site as opposed to the three others I've seen. But if it were possible as an OPTION... (I'll stop now. ;))
ps- to re-iterate, perhaps 2 contests before newbie votes. As it is, I could set up an account at work and vote for myself or call my buddies and say 'log in here and vote for me' (not that I would) ...food for thought.

libra - good idea, BUT that debate has raged elsewhere and it's a huge can of worms. Time taken to vote seems to be the crux issue. Maybe the people here are more reasonable!?!

lol Dave. - or the rushin' judge. :D

[Silky]

[QUOTE=123456789] As it is, I could set up an account at work and vote for myself or call my buddies and say 'log in here and vote for me' (not that I would) ...food for thought.
[/QUOTE]

You could...but we'd know about it. ;)

[123456789]

-Confused-
How would you know if my IP at work and at home were different?

[Silky]

[QUOTE=123456789]-Confused-
How would you know if my IP at work and at home were different?[/QUOTE]

Because we watch the actual voting. If someone tags your entry with a high vote...like a 10, and then lowballs all the others....*ding ding ding* WE HAVE A WINNER! If someone votes high on yours and then average on the others...it really won't do you much good now would it...:D

[Scott]

There are other ways as well.. which we wont' reveal :)

[down2earth2]

Originally Posted by 123456789

[QUOTE=123456789]As it is, I could set up an account at work and vote for myself or call my buddies and say 'log in here and vote for me' (not that I would) ...food for thought.[/QUOTE]

I'm sure a determined person could cheat if they wanted. After taking reasonable measures to make cheating difficult, you just have to trust people to not cheat. Cheating ruins the contest and site; it's like poisoning the well you're drinking from.


[QUOTE=Silky]You could...but we'd know about it. ;)[/QUOTE]

If someone's votes were out of wack, or consistantly voting the same person suspiciously high... it would show.

:chin: While we're talking about possible changes in voting, I wonder if Jolt could set it up so were could vote on people's replies to threads. Maybe one vote for concept, and another for execution. If people would like to vote on this reply, please go ahead (as to my execution, please notice I used a semi-colon in my first paragraph). Constructive comments would also be appreciated.

[Dave]

It's the micro camera built into the PA logo that scans your retinal pattern.

d2e2 there is an option to report a thread, the option to "vote" on a comment is turned off at present.

Style mark for your post 2/10 .... for the first line repeat :jk:

[123456789]

My original reasoning for a 2 contest entry for voting privileges was so that newbies could get a first-hand feel for what people vote for and what kind of thing merits what kind of votes. They might not throw out the tens. Then again, they still might. It wouldn't change the positions of participants in a contest anyhow (unless they only gave tens and ones.) The cheating issue was more of an afterthought and was by no means meant to be taken too seriously. Of course if people want to cheat, they're only cheating themselves, and they will find a way, but it was just another reason to support my view. I didn't mean that it was going to reach plague proportions. I was just curious as to the means by which someone here would know and now I understand. I never had any intention of duping anybody, and I hope that that's not what was understood by my question.

[Silky]

1-9...no one thinks you were duping anyone. :) I know you were just tossing that out there...and I never took it otherwise.

As for the 2 contest entry for voting privileges, I can tell you we have a couple of voters who've been here a while who chronically vote low, no matter what. We've PM'd them...asked them to review the voting scale, etc...and they still vote a lot of 1-3's. So really, if someone wants to vote low, they will, and the only thing we can do is completely prevent them from voting. That really isn't something we want to do...and unless it gets extreme, we wouldn't. Of course, that doesn't mean we WON'T, so I don't want anyone getting any ideas.

Now for a bit of off topicness...:) I really encourage all voters...especially those who aren't as well versed in Photoshop, etc. to review the voting tutorial and the voting scale. Voting a 1, 2 or 3 on images that deserve 6, 7 or 8 is really uncalled for. Now don't bombard me with "voting is subjective"...bla bla bla...I know it is. However, when we're talking technical ability and execution, it's really easy to pick out the 1-3 images from the 6-8 images...and when I see a 6-8 image get a 1-3, my first thought is that the voter either a) doesn't know HOW to vote, b) doesn't care what he votes, or c) knows that by voting low he can drop someone's average. I would rather think they don't know how to vote...in which case I strongly suggest that everyone READ THE VOTING SCALE! You do the authors of these images a disservice by not giving them what their images are due.

So...I did get a bit off topic...so sue me. :) We've gone through the voting dilemma so many times, and I doubt it'll ever be completely the way we all want it. So, we make due with what we have...and we hope that everyone votes on each other's images the way they want others to vote on their images.

*ding ding* Time for Round Four. :D

[123456789]

It's ok, people can vote as they like - as long as they apply the same rules to everyone evenly, then it doesn't change much (except the averages, so what.) Do we even have an overall average? I don't remember seeing it anywhere. Any way you look at it, I'm just pleased that people take the time to vote and especially comment; we can only grow from it, even if they don't know what the HELL they are doing!! (<--- joke) :D
ps- I like Jolt's system of +/- voting. It makes sense to me.

[Silky]

The overall average is the average you find on your stats page at the end of a contest...or under the image itself.